10-28-2011, 08:15 PM | #1 |
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Classical Music Attribution
Can we get a solid system of classifying the classical music on FFR? It's annoying the way every song has a different system- I sort by "author" and Chopin files show up in two places (F. Chopin and Chopin).
Titling songs the way classical music is supposed to be classified would make it look a lot more professional, not to mention making searching a lot easier. I can make a full list of the names that should be changed if people think this is a decent idea. Currently it just looks very sloppy to someone like me who is more used to classical music. EDIT- Here is the final list of what Subin and I had in mind, along with many of your suggestions in the thread: One Minute Waltz "Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 (F.Chopin) Minute Waltz v2 "Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 V2 (F.Chopin) Revolutionary Etude "Revolutionary" Etude Op.10, No.12 (F.Chopin) Etude in E Major "Tristesse" Etude Op.10, No.3 -Shortened- (F.Chopin) Op.10 No.9 Etude Op.10, No.9 (F.Chopin) Winter Wind Etude "Winter Wind" Etude Op.25, No.11 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Hisamori) Black Key Etude "Black Key" Etude Op.10, No.5 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Krueger) Prelude No. 7 Prelude Op.28, No.7 (F.Chopin) Molto Vivace Transcendental Etude No.2 (F.Liszt) La Campanella "La Campanella" Grand Paganini Etude No.3 (F.Liszt) Grand Galop Chromatique Grand Galop Chromatique (F.Liszt, pf. A.Laviano) Mephisto Waltz Mephisto Waltz No.1 (F.Liszt, arr. Xandertrax) Hungarian Dance #7 Hungarian Dance No.7 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Soltau) Hungarian Dance #5 Hungarian Dance No.5 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Batty) Turkish March Turkish March Op.113, No.4 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. T.Leen) Moonlight Sonata "Moonlight" Sonata #14 Op.27-2 Mvt.1 -Shortened- (L.v.Beethoven) Sonata Quasi Una Fantasie Mo.3 "Moonlight" Sonata #14 Op.27-2 Mvt.3 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. B.Hisamori) Humoresque No. 7 Humoresque Op.101, No.7 (A.Dvorak) Caprice Caprice No.5 (N.Paganini, pf. S.Mintz) Flight of the Bumblebee Flight of the Bumblebee (N.Rimsky-Korsakov) Rondo Alla Turca "Rondo Alla Turca" No.11 K331 Mvt.3 (W.A.Mozart, pf. P.Glass) Rondo Alla Turca V2 "Rondo Alla Turca" No.11 K331 Mvt.3 V2 (W.A.Mozart) Can Can (Piano Version) "Can Can" Orphee aux enfers -Piano- (J.Offenbach) Badinerie "Badinerie" Suite No.2-7 BWV 1067 -Piano- (J.S.Bach) Tambourin Chinois Tambourin Chinois Op.3 (F.Kreisler) Maple Leaf Rag Maple Leaf Rag (S.Joplin, pf. B.R.Tubb) Fig Leaf Rag Fig Leaf Rag (S.Joplin, pf. B.R.Tubb) The Entertainer The Entertainer (S.Joplin, pf. B.R.Tubb) Jelly Roll Blues Jelly Roll Blues (J.R.Morton, pf. B.R.Tubb)
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10-28-2011, 08:17 PM | #2 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
I support this 100% - it might involve changing the name of a few things in game but it definitely looks neater and more professional.
Great suggestion. |
10-28-2011, 08:18 PM | #3 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
Sounds legit and indeed looks a bit more coherent. I know nothing about that notation though... I always thought what we had now was ok. :S
To how many songs does this problem apply to? So far, I believe: Maple Leaf Rag Fig Leaf Rag The Entertainer Hungarian Dance #7 Tambourin Chinois (??) Jelly Roll Blues Turkish March Black Key Etude Op. 10 No.09 Mephisto Waltz Grand Galop Chromatique La Campanella Winter Wind Etude Last edited by MarioNintendo; 10-28-2011 at 08:22 PM.. |
10-28-2011, 08:21 PM | #4 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
If people think this is too archaic one possibility is to put the common title in the front:
Winter Wind Etude (A minor, Op. 25 No. 11) This is not technically wrong and is much easier for people to read. @MarioNintendo nearly every song by a classical composer in FFR has some sort of attribution error lmao. It's been bugging me for a while...
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10-28-2011, 08:22 PM | #5 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
I tried to list those I could find.
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10-28-2011, 08:25 PM | #6 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
If you're wondering where I'm getting this from, I use the attribution listed on IMSLP. I generally trust it as a pretty good source of music information.
EDIT- I'll have to check but I think the ragtime pieces are attributed correctly. Not sure about Tambourin Chinois, I'd have to look around the internets for information about that one most likely. The rest all have minor issues, yeah.
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10-28-2011, 08:57 PM | #7 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
100% support. Classification of pieces would improve the "classical genre" and make it look more professional, nonetheless more stomach-able.
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10-28-2011, 09:17 PM | #8 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
What about One Minute Waltz (which, to my knowledge is Waltz 64 Op. 1 - "Petit Chien)?
I don't know about Molto Vivace. Also, Op. 10 No. 9 - does it have some sort of name too? |
10-28-2011, 09:51 PM | #9 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
Going through and finding eveyrthing that needs changing. Really hoping someone takes the time to actually change these, I don't care which of the three formats you use as all of them are significantly better than what we have now.
Current Name Common Name Last format (technically correct) alternatively Common Name First format alternatively Common Name No Key format Proper Artist attribution notes: ------------------------------------ One Minute Waltz Waltz Op. 64, No. 1 in D♭ major "Minute Waltz" alternatively Minute Waltz in D♭ major (Op. 64, No. 1) alternatively Minute Waltz Op. 64, No. 1 F. Chopin notes: Would be lovely to find the performer. Minute Waltz v2 Waltz Op. 64, No. 1 in D♭ major "Minute Waltz" v2 alternatively Minute Waltz in D♭ major (Op. 64, No. 1) v2 alternatively Minute Waltz Op. 64, No. 1 v2 F. Chopin notes: Would be lovely to find the performer. Revolutionary Etude Etude Op. 10, No. 12 in C minor "Revolutionary" alternatively Revolutionary Etude in C minor (Op. 10, No. 12) alternatively Revolutionary Etude Op. 10, No. 12 F. Chopin notes: Would be lovely to find the performer. Etude in E Major Etude Op. 10, No. 3 in E major alternatively Etude in E major (Op. 10, No. 3) alternatively Etude Op. 10, No. 3 F. Chopin notes: Don't capitalize major/minor in the key name. This song is dramatically cut and perhaps that is worth noting. Also needs a performer, perhaps this is another performed by Xandertrax himself? This is sometimes called the "Tristesse'" (sadness) or "Farewell" Etude though neither was used by Chopin himself- not sure if we want to use one of these common names or not. Op.10 No.9 Etude Op. 10, No. 9 in F minor alternatively Etude in F minor (Op. 10, No. 9) alternatively Etude Op. 10, No. 9 F. Chopin notes: Would be lovely to find the performer. This really doesn't have a common name (other than being known as the "easiest" of the Chopin Etudes lol) Winter Wind Etude Etude Op. 25, No. 11 in A minor "Winter Wind" alternatively Winter Wind Etude in A minor (Op. 25, No. 11) alternatively Winter Wind Etude Op. 25, No. 11 F. Chopin pf. B. Hisamori Black Key Etude Etude Op. 10, No. 5 in G♭ major "Black Key" alternatively Black Key Etude in G♭ major (Op. 10, No. 5) alternatively Black Key Etude Op. 10, No. 5 F. Chopin pf. B. Krueger Prelude No. 7 Prelude Op. 28, No. 7 in A major alternatively Prelude in A major (Op. 28, No. 7) alternatively Prelude Op. 28, No. 7 F. Chopin pf. Xandertrax Molto Vivace Transcendental Etude S. 139, No. 2 in A minor alternatively Transcendental Etude in A minor (S. 139, No. 2) alternatively Transcendental Etude S. 139, No. 2 F. Liszt notes: "Molto Vivace" is merely the instructions for the style and speed of the piece, it has little to do with the name lol. Missing a performer; this sounds rather MIDI-ish to me so it might be hard to find. This is technically from Études d'exécution transcendante, but I'm being realistic with my English here. The common name for this, if any, would be Fusées (Rockets). La Campanella Grand Paganini Etude S. 141, No.3 in G♯ minor "La Campanella" alternatively Grand Paganini Etude in G♯ minor (S. 141, No.3) "La Campanella" alternatively Grand Paganini Etude S. 141, No.3 "La Campanella" alternatively La Campanella (Grand Paganini Etude S. 141, No.3) alternatively simply La Campanella F. Liszt notes: It is difficult to know how technical to be with the name of this piece, as it is SO widely known merely as La Campanella, so I gave a few options, starting with the most technical. Which you use depends on the format chosen for the other songs. Once again I was realistic with English, instead of using Grandes études de Paganini. w_c mentioned he had a friend master a MIDI for this recording, it would be great to get said friend's name as a performer attribution. Grand Galop Chromatique Grand Galop Chromatique, S. 219 alternatively simply Grand Galop Chromatique F. Liszt pf. A. Laviano notes: Basically already correct. Hardly even worth changing, though the format for the performer's name needs a quick fix. Mephisto Waltz Mephisto Waltz No. 1, S. 514 alternatively Mephisto Waltz No. 1 F. Liszt pf. Xandertrax notes: This song is cut (the full version as Liszt wrote it was 10+ minutes), not sure if that is worth noting. A subtle difference here is that the No. 1 goes before S. 514, as Liszt wrote multiple Mephisto Waltzes (and even a Mephisto Polka!) over many different years. This makes the numbering distinct from the type of numbering uses for pieces within an individual opus. Hungarian Dance #7 Hungarian Dance #5 Turkish March Moonlight Sonata Sonata Quasi Una Fantasia Mov.3 notes: Don't forget to change the associated token text as well. Humoresque No. 7 Caprice Flight of the Bumblebee Rondo Alla Turca Rondo Alla Turca V2 notes: Is there a standard format for the "v" in v2s? Some are "v2" and others are "V2" lol... I went with lowercase using "vrofl" as my guideline but I'm not sure here. Can Can (Piano Version) Badinerie Additional songs to check: Leaves In The Wind, Tambourin Chinois, ragtime songs. additional notes: Etude is actually spelled Étude- not sure if FFR's font can handle the accent but if the character exists in the font it's worth using for accuracy! If the ♭♯ characters are not supported, spell it "-flat" or "-sharp" i.e. D-flat, C-sharp This is clearly still a work in progress, it's taking me a few hours to get all this right so bear with me lol :P EDIT- Okay I'm getting a little tired of this... I have finished half of the songs. If an admin comes in here and promises to change them once I'm done, then I will promise to finish this within a day. How about that?
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10-29-2011, 07:01 AM | #10 | ||
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
Quote:
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10-29-2011, 01:01 PM | #11 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
Wow thank you, that's a great list.
One thing I was grappling with was how to include the common names appropriately. Let's face it, the community has gotten used to calling the Winter Wind Etude by that name, so it seems unnecessarily archaic not to include it somewhere in the name. But the list as you have it is very good. Hopefully someone comes in here and actually works with us to get them changed >_< p.s. awesome video of Caprice No.5! I had no idea that performance was on Youtube
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10-31-2011, 10:05 PM | #12 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
There is no common name for Chopin Op. 10 No.9
My only huge gripe with your list is to not put "Molto Vivace" for Transcendental Etude No.2. Out of all the misnamed files that is the worst- it's truly WRONG; it has nothing to do with the name of the song in any context and is not worth preserving IMO. Other people's opinions about this would be nice- I'd say if we have to use a common name, use Fusées/Rockets, but I'd actually prefer just Transcendental Etude No.2. I'm also leaning towards an abbreviation for the movement rather than the name of the movement, i.e. Mvt. 3 instead of "Presto agitato" for Moonlight Sonata. Again it's less technically correct but more in-line with how a non-music person would name the piece. I think some concessions have to be made for accessibility... though on the other hand it does look a little goofy >_<. It's worth discussing though because I'm not sure why you went with the movement name system. (p.s. I'm pretty sure the Alla Turca is Mvt.3 so that's what I put but I didn't check lol) Also went with "Shortened" over "Short version" - it's not technically a "version" of the song, more a "perversion" (lol I'm so funny) Anyway "shortened" gets the idea across better IMO- why did you use different words? Also, am I correct in understanding that Mephisto Waltz No.1 is not tagged -Shortened- (even though it most certainly is shorter than the full piece) because it has been marked as "arranged" by Xandertrax? I'm pretty sure Badinerie is the 7th movement of Suite no.2, is that worth marking? I added it in but I'm not entirely sure it's correct. Also, I didn't add this in but should we credit SKG_Scintill as the performer of Chopin Etude Op.10, No.9? He said so above... Shortened Philip Glass to P.Glass too. Anyway this is what I propose, similar to what you had really. What do you think of the changes? One Minute Waltz "Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 (F.Chopin) Minute Waltz v2 "Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 v2 (F.Chopin) Revolutionary Etude "Revolutionary" Etude Op.10, No.12 (F.Chopin) Etude in E Major "Tristesse" Etude Op.10, No.3 -Shortened- (F.Chopin) Op.10 No.9 Etude Op.10, No.9 (F.Chopin) Winter Wind Etude "Winter Wind" Etude Op.25, No.11 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Hisamori) Black Key Etude "Black Key" Etude Op.10, No.5 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Krueger) Prelude No. 7 Prelude Op.28, No.7 (F.Chopin, pf. Xandertrax) Molto Vivace Transcendental Etude No.2 (F.Liszt) La Campanella "La Campanella" Grand Paganini Etude No.3 (F.Liszt) Grand Galop Chromatique Grand Galop Chromatique (F.Liszt, pf. A.Laviano) Mephisto Waltz Mephisto Waltz No.1 (F.Liszt, arr.Xandertrax) Hungarian Dance #7 Hungarian Dance No.7 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Soltau) Hungarian Dance #5 Hungarian Dance No.5 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Batty) Turkish March Marcia Alla Turca Op.113, No.4 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. T.Leen) Moonlight Sonata "Moonlight" Sonata No.14-Op.27 No.2 Mvt.1 -Shortened- (L.v.Beethoven) Sonata Quasi Una Fantasie Mo.3 "Moonlight" Sonata No.14-Op.27 No.2 Mvt.3 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. B.Hisamori) Humoresque No. 7 Humoresque Op.101, No.7 (A.Dvorak) Caprice Caprice No.5 (N.Paganini, pf. S.Mintz) Flight of the Bumblebee Flight of the Bumblebee (N.Rimsky-Korsakov) Rondo Alla Turca "Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 (W.A.Mozart, pf. P.Glass) Rondo Alla Turca V2 "Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 v2 (W.A.Mozart) Can Can (Piano Version) "Can Can" Orphee aux enfers -Piano- (J.Offenbach) Badinerie "Badinerie" Suite No.2 BWV 1067 Mvt.7 -Piano- (J.S.Bach) Tambourin Chinois Tambourin Chinois Op.3 (F.Kreisler)
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11-1-2011, 04:12 AM | #13 | |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
I don't mind not being listed as performer, given that I could also record myself playing it, at which point I would be the actual performer. Right now it's more "performed by EDIROL Orchestral"
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11-1-2011, 04:28 AM | #14 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
The person that mastered la campanella was sleeplessdrgn btw
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11-1-2011, 10:41 AM | #15 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
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11-1-2011, 12:24 PM | #16 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
I like the idea of organizing classical music more, but I worry the proposal is being way too technical. For instance, there are songs whose names will be changed too drastically, like Molto Vivace, which has been known as such for so long that I'd say it would actually be a really bad decision to change it now. Also, a lot of these names get really technical to the point where songs basically have several ID numbers attached to them, numbers which don't provide any useful info to someone who isn't a scholar of classical music.
I mean, honestly, ""Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 v2"? That's too long to show up in its entirety in the song menu (keep in mind it's very important that the v2 is shown in a clear place to distinguish the versions of the song), and the extra numbers and data essentially mean nothing to someone who isn't a scholar of Mozart's classical repertoire. From my point of view, "Rondo Alla Turca" is the common name of the song, and "Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3" is just information about the song's style and origins, which can be easily looked up with a Google search for anyone who's interested. If you're going to include all that lookup data you might as well write "Toxiferous Dystopia NG115042 Op.10 (cut)" too. But if you really want to include information like that, it would probably be better to put it in with the author (e.g.: "Mozart (No.11 K331 Mvt.3) pf. Philip Glass") or the Song Style field (e.g.: "Classical - No.11 K331 Mvt.3").
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11-1-2011, 12:50 PM | #17 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
I'd argue that we are being that technical with other songs too...
To use your Newgrounds example, {Rose} is in fact a different song from Rose. We'd be doing a disservice to cornandbeans by not properly labeling his song, and it's similar for classical music. Putting the opus and number in the Song Style field is a very good idea, though. Some titles I still feel should be changed (Molto Vivace has nothing to do with the name of the song, I mean it's as if you called Blue Army as "Techno Music" umm no, that's not the name of the song)
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11-1-2011, 01:29 PM | #18 |
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
Rondo Alla Turca really needs to be called that otherwise far less people will play it because they won't know what it is. What about just "Rondo Alla Turca" followed by the K number?
Also I disagree with putting usernames as "performers" when the music is a MIDI file or remastering etc. That's not performing. But that's just my Op.inion :P |
11-1-2011, 01:37 PM | #19 | |||
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
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The only ones that are changing dramatically are Turkish March (to Marcia Alla Turca, which I think is not too bad), Etude in E Major to "Tristesse" Etude, and Molto Vivace, which I've already explained is just a horrible mis-naming to begin with. Everything else has the name by which FFR is used to calling it, PLUS the correct information. Quote:
I suppose we could take Xandertrax out of the performer attribution entirely and label it as -Shortened-, not entirely sure why subin went with this method but it was still technically correct so I went with it. Quote:
I'd argue that we should change the names AND find a way to make more space on the engine, but maybe that's not possible. I'd love if someone more admin-ish could weigh in on this, *wink wink*
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11-3-2011, 07:10 PM | #20 | ||
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Re: Classical Music Attribution
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EDIT: I have a feeling that the "Marcia Alla Turca" name was not favored because Beethoven was Italian (I mean, he isn't ) but because Italian was essentially the dominant language of music at the time and there was no reason to buck convention. I'd argue that it shows no more disrespect to translate the name into English than if we were to translate Newton's books into English from the original Latin. Quote:
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