So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

[lnick]

So after reading the Anime Boston post and having a great laugh about QED and his アニメ STEPMANIA PANEL I started to think about StepMania and again about it's general direction in terms of ever garnering the attention of more then just a handful of people again.

It's really funny though because I also wanted to attend the panel too just to see it, because well, it's StepMania. But aside from a few things which I don't really have any ground to speak on regarding QED's performance like pad things and what not, the whole anime keyboard simfile bullshut did bring up a lot of questions for me.

As most of us already know, QED has a pretty decently sized demographic playing his files and has been for quite awhile now, but it's funny because it seems like this is somewhat disappointing for some other simfile authors here, but why? Is it because we (those people I guess) wish that our simfiles were able to achieve that level of playability but failed to do it? Or maybe the feeling you get knowing that the people who are playing these files are "growing up" playing them and are therefore, programming themselves into the logic that QED puts forth as a "good simfile", meaning if they ever came to this community, they would have to face the same, harsh, and shunning atmosphere that QED himself faced when he tried to depute here? I think that there's probably more reasons, and also there are people here that do not even care about anybody else other then the inner circle of friends that has been here playing for years when they are making simfiles for a big pack or w/e.

But even so, it's still funny. Because i'd really love to see StepMania become popular again like it once was some 3 - 4 years ago, but it really doesn't seem like it's ever going to be going anywhere near going anywhere near the general direction on the intersection to the road of where it was back then. Why? Well, maybe because of the people who pioneered StepMania into becoming a very fun and applicable experience in the first place, and how they all left, leaving not many of their type behind, but instead having a small minority of players who have been fine-tuned (not sure if write word) into seeing what they /think/ is the "RIGHT" way of how a simfile should be. Because let's face it, if you rewind your stepmania life to the very beginning, then what would you be able to say if someone were to ask you "What brought you to this game?" anyways?

There's actually quite a number of reasons why you could have been drawn to this game actually, but for now i'll probably be interested in focusing on what I believe (at least) is one of the largest reasons why we started playing StepMania, which is because "I saw one of the songs that I liked on YouTube being played on this mysterious DDR-looking game and it looked fun."
Because let's face it, who wouldn't want to play one of their favorite songs in an interactive rhythm type of game?

It's actually a really fun and interesting concept, but for some reason, this drive or motivation is suddenly cut short when people enjoy playing this game to the point where they would like to interact with other people who also enjoy playing this game. So basically they go out looking for an community website to join so they can talk and play with other people who share this same interest in SM, but what community is left that is not chock-full of the people, who I explained above, who are too hardened to the "common methodology" of how a simfile should be? I mean, it's kind of funny when some dude who nobody HERE has ever heard about suddenly submits a bunch of his own simfiles to a pack that is being held and then gets them all horribly rejected, then decides that since he still finds them 100% enjoyable and fun to play (don't forget along with his small group of people who also wholeheartedly agree with him [small group, but PEOPLE none-the-less]), he then creates his own thread to depute to those people and also try and fish for some other people who might be interested in his "style" of simfiles and then gets totally ragged out by the community who see what he is doing as "wrong", or not right, or just This Shit Is Bad Why Would I Ever Play This Ever.

Because I think that's pretty funny, especially now, since there isn't much, if any, new people coming in to our community who hasn't been playing for numerous years. TBH I think the reason why is basically because of the fact that the majority of the StepMania community is just not welcoming at all to new people, not in the sense that we are not friendly people, but more in the sense that when we find something that is matching our squares into our circles, we uncontrollably react to them in a way that might not warrant any friendly incentive for them to stay with us. Coming back to QED again, we know that probably more people play his simfiles then most of the other "Well Known" simfile authors here, but why?

Well, it's actually due to a number of reasons, one would probably be because JAPAN and everybody loves to be anime song, but also another reason is that some people just find it downright fun to just get down and play one of their favorite songs in stepmania, regardless of if they stepped a really sick jack to that sound-that-obviously-should've-been-a-jack, or don't step a stream where they "should" have stepped a stream there, or even to an extreme extent, their steps don't even make sense with the music itself (think jumps that don't go to any real noticeably larger sound, but rather, they are just fun), and that's probably one of the biggest things that new, potential players would want to see themselves doing if they ever picked up StepMania.

I just think that whole fun factor seems like it's just been totally alienated from the game, at this moment in time at least, because there's so many terminology and styles and just things that we've found out how to do with simfiles now that it seems like it's totally detracted from main reason we started playing this game in the first place, to experience the songs we enjoyed listening to on this different plane.

And it's really sad to hear when people talk about how QED is wrong, or that his way shouldn't be the way simfiles should be stepped now, because when it really comes down to it, why should anybody have any authority over whether someone else is supposed to enjoy a simfile their way or the highway? It's seems really ridiculous when I lock back on it now, seeing as I was one of the people who actually did this, to QED in particular, and may have been one of the bigger reasons why the whole QED fiasco manifested itself into something of this remembrance.

Because what i'm just trying to say is that, at least right now, it doesn't seem like SM is going anywhere really, because our communites are so disconnected in this sense of what is right and what is wrong in simfiles, when really it shouldn't even matter. I mean, if a simfile you made was fun for you and maybe fun for other people too, then why should someone else have the power to tell you otherwise? I realize that I was pretty much like this back when I started playing StepMania, and through my primitive I-play-because-i-like-the-song motives, I was able to evolve too in the sense that I was able to discover that there are a lot of other ways for simfiles to be made way differently then i'd imagined, not just by being more complex and difficult but other things as well.

But this still didn't work, because I also had to go through the whole "your simfiles are bad, the simfiles you play and think are fun are bad, so make your simfile like this and we (the majority of the bigger SM communities at that time) will consider adding it to our super awesome pack" phase. TBH, i'd probably have just up and left if I was ever called out for my ideas of what is fun being stated otherwise, because let's face it, that's just not nice, and if you yourself find it fun to play, then why is there any reason to change? There shouldn't really be a pressure weighing down on you to change, in the sense that our community will not "accept" you unless you cater to -their- desires and ideals of fun and not -yours-, and I really feel like it's really taken its toll on the SM community the past few years which is, I believe, one of the largest factors to why so many people just flat out stopped playing, dwindling our rather large community to whatever is left now. (Note: There's not much left it seems.)

So I don't really know what to say to be honest. I really believe StepMania has the potential to become a consistently popular game, not because of the mechanical aspect of the game, but rather, because there will ALWAYS be new, fun to listen to, fun to play music appearing, and I really wish that we(I guess just me, at least) had been able to keep to that basic ideal, because that's probably the reason why so many people play QED's files, that's why so many people play or used to play the OD mixes: Because it's fun and people like seeing songs that they enjoy in StepMania, whether they are "stepped right" or not, they just enjoy playing them because they enjoy the song.

I was actually talking with Lain and we were throwing around the idea of making a StepMania panel, not just because it'd be A ****ing StepMania Panel, but because it might potentially be able to attract some people into picking the game up, which is always nice, right? It's kind of lonely seeing the usual stargroups, patashus, etc (there's a bunch of people yes, but also notice how long it's been just those people) I'd probably be interested in making a panel although I could see it being very complex in terms of what exactly we would like to show without totally blowing it for everyone, but the main concept is still there (also note it was also still there for QED's panel, albeit not exactly executed well I heard), which is to allow people to enjoy their music in a different level of interaction, but when I think about it, it does sound like a really neat idea. It would definitely be on my list of things to do for "Reviving" the stepmania community, but i've just gotten back into SM again after not playing it for almost half a year, and i'm obviously not as energetic about working with SM to restore the community as I was back then, but this would still be a pretty cool thing to do. Although right now I have a lot of things going on and I probably wouldn't be able to do something like that any time soon, but still, very good idea.

I just noticed that there were a lot of things I seen funny with my post, but when you're like this then most things are just, well, funny. Anyways.
But anyways, right now the indica is setting in on me so i'm going to have to stop now, but i'll probably wake up to this later and see how ridiculous I was in posting something like this, but I do believe that is a rather large, gaping problem right now with where StepMania is, and where it wants to be or may want to be in terms of overall presence to the world of gaming, and we're probably going to need to work on it if we ever wish to start seeing new people playing this game (I was thinking like Osu, but that might be a little too extreme) anytime soon.

TL;DR: There is no TLDR because there is, just read it because i'd like to see some of the people here's opinions since i'm sure there are other people who want to see other people play Stepmania then just us.

[LongGone]

Good read

[who_cares973]

Technicality>fun factor

[Jousway]

I'm to lazy to write shit I already said before so I'ma just post stuff from irc from a month ago or so

[03:57] <%Orange-kun> I found this post on a blog and its really bashing about how bad OD files are hahah
[03:57] <Hameru> link
[03:58] <%Orange-kun> http://cpu13.rustedlogic.net/blog/?p=70
[03:58] <%Orange-kun> http://cpu13.rustedlogic.net/blog/?p=16 << one about odmix
[03:59] <Hameru> "To make up for you wasting your time, play my simfiles. They are much better."
[03:59] <Hameru> "To make up for you wasting your time, play my simfiles. They are much better."
[03:59] <Hameru> "To make up for you wasting your time, play my simfiles. They are much better."
[03:59] <Hameru> "To make up for you wasting your time, play my simfiles. They are much better."
[03:59] <Hameru> "To make up for you wasting your time, play my simfiles. They are much better."
[03:59] <Hameru> "To make up for you wasting your time, play my simfiles. They are much better."
[03:59] <Hameru> nice ****ing ego
[03:59] <Hameru> I already hate this ****** already
[03:59] <~Ziergdsx18> lol
[04:00] <Hameru> "All are made for pad, cut and rendered as OGG files for easy play on r21 machines (will need to be patched if longer), and remain uncensored so don't play where people are easily offended I guess."
[04:00] <Hameru> there's an inconsistency
[04:00] <Hameru> he's comparing pad files with keyboard
[04:00] <Hameru> he steps pad but he's criticizing keyboard files
[04:00] <Hameru> when he doesn't stepf ro keyboard
[04:00] <Hameru> I ****ing hate when people do this
[04:03] <Hameru> another inconsistency
[04:04] <Hameru> he's criticizing anime packs when he himself doesn't like anime in the first place
[04:06] <zolaric> conclusion this guy's a douche
[04:06] <~Ziergdsx18> hyprocrites
[04:06] <~Ziergdsx18>
[04:06] <~Ziergdsx18> Jk
[04:07] <zolaric> they were my first packs
[04:07] <zolaric> still remember some files lol
[04:09] <Hameru> "Given that I don’t care about keyboard files AT ALL, I went with the pad pack."
[04:10] <Hameru> "Given that I don’t care about keyboard files AT ALL"
[04:10] <Hameru> "Given that I don’t care about keyboard files AT ALL"
[04:10] <Hameru> then why in the **** are you reviewing a keyboard ****ing mix
[04:10] <Hameru> asdlojkhaskjdhasd
[04:10] <Hameru> okay I'm pissed
[04:10] <Hameru> ragequit
[04:12] <%Orange-kun> there are a load of blogs like this out there talking about how bad od file's are, just look for reviews and you will find them
[04:12] <Hameru> I'm not going to bother because they will all be worthless complaints for the wrong reasons
[04:14] <%Orange-kun> what I always found most interesting is that a load of japanese steppers think OD files are crap, what I have seen with OD files is that people that have never stepped before really like them, while people that have stepped before dont
[04:15] <Hameru> because file perspective changes once you actually pick up and learn how to step a song
[04:15] <Hameru> if you just play, you just play and judge based on fun factor alone
[04:15] <%Orange-kun> yeah thats pretty much the issue
[04:16] <Hameru> most complaints go towards file difficulty. the mentality of "if the file's too hard, it's a bad file"
[04:16] <Hameru> e.g. hand usage complaints for OD keyboard mixes
[04:16] <%Orange-kun> like in the past I enjoyed OD files way more than I do now, when I play files made by people from xoon for example I get the way you step, but these days when I look at OD files I just dont see the patern
[04:16] <%Orange-kun> they step*
[04:17] <Hameru> simfile making has shifted towards a more structured spectrum influenced by elitism
[04:17] <Hameru> back in the day, that did not exist
[04:17] <Hameru> you poop a file and play it
[04:18] <%Orange-kun> another problem is the playing style like OD makes kb files for spread, and for other playing styles the way the files are made can be hard to play and iritating in some cases
[04:18] <Hameru> exactly an example of complaints for the wrong reasons
[04:20] <%Orange-kun> but the main problem is that there is no right or wrong way to make a file, like there is no shuch thing as a correct file, people step files the way they see the files, their vision, they get the vision from playing files from other people, and I myself have played quite some japanese files made by people from japan and the way its made is so diffrent for the english based stepmania comunity, which results in these problems
[04:20] <Hameru> pretty much the inconsistency of things
[04:21] <%Orange-kun> but the problem with people is that they see their way of stepping correct which will result in conflict, like I have seen these japanese people talking about english based files being so wrong, while they are actually not wrong, but people are so thickheaded that they see their way of stepping the right way, a great example of this problem is QED
[04:22] <Hameru> another factor is ego, like that ****ing guy from that blog
[04:23] <Hameru> honestly I just say **** it all
[04:23] <Hameru> step and play
[04:24] <%Orange-kun> its starts with the basics of the humman mind, every humman has his own logic, in other words, every person sees things their own way, again QED is a great example, he wants to make great stepmania files and stop bad files so he makes them 100% correct to his logic, and thats why we have these problems, because acording to his logic its fine, but to OD or Xoon logic its wrong
[04:25] <zolaric> I say if a file makes me keep coming back to play it
[04:25] <zolaric> It's good
[04:25] <%Orange-kun> yeah
[04:25] <%Orange-kun> but if you dont like it, it can still be good
[04:25] <%Orange-kun> its just you see the file the same way as the person that made the file
[04:25] <zolaric> but being good is in itself subjective
[04:25] <%Orange-kun> so you can both enjoy it
[04:26] <Hameru> jewsway human is spelt with one m
[04:26] <zolaric> just because I don't like a file doesn't mean someone else won't find it good
[04:26] <%Orange-kun> like zolaric if you see a dump file with a load of jacks and everything, most people in OD and KBO wont enjoy it right
[04:27] <zolaric> yeah
[04:27] <%Wineandbread> humman
[04:27] <Hameru> actually on the contrary jewsway
[04:27] <%Wineandbread> hey look a debate about the difference between fun files and technically correct files
[04:27] <%Wineandbread> :<
[04:27] <Hameru> times have changed and all people play now are dumpfiles
[04:28] <Hameru> but apparently there's some kind of standard that separates "good" and "bad" dumps which I don't ****ing understand at all and makes absolutely no sense
[04:28] <%Orange-kun> like KBO/FFR made the term dump, thats how we define these files, to other people they arnt dumps, to them the term doesnt exist, I have played files from diffrent people trying to see how they play, which is quite interesting to look at tbh
[04:29] <%Orange-kun> thats because dumps is changed by people all the time, at least thats what I see
[04:29] <%Orange-kun> to some dumps are oversteped files, to other they are just not properly stepped and just arrows everywere
[04:30] <%Orange-kun> most terms we use for stepmania files are made in this comunity, it might be the same game we play as other people but they have a totaly diffrent way of stepping, its like the diffrence between a original japanese house and an original english house, they both have a long history which made them to what they are
[04:35] <%Orange-kun> I see stepping files the same way as building a house, they both have to be build so its safe but the way they look can be totaly diffrent like an western house and an asian house, but still both houses arnt builded wrong, like some westerns look at asian houses and think they are crazy and the other way around, which is the same as people talking whats the right way to step

thats all I have to say

[Shikari]

Originally Posted by lnick

I just think that whole fun factor seems like it's just been totally alienated from the game, at this moment in time at least, because there's so many terminology and styles and just things that we've found out how to do with simfiles now that it seems like it's totally detracted from main reason we started playing this game in the first place, to experience the songs we enjoyed listening to on this different plane.

My thoughts exactly. I remember playing files from packs like F4, KBC, where they were just streams of all kinds, and nowadays, we have rainbow theory, hands and whatnot. People nowadays care more about being technical (e.g. Making the "perfect" simfile) than making something fun, enjoyable to play. I think that's what is missing to bring new people to our community: Fun. If you make a simfile, probably a judge will say "measure XX, you missed a note, and measure YY, that jump is unnecessary, I'm rejecting your file", and maybe they don't care if the file is actually fun to play. About song choice, anime files are more popular because animes themselves are popular, but I don't think that's the main reason why people play them more than keyboard files, for example. They may think that anime files are better than keyboard files for not being so hard sometimes, I don't know. I used to play anime packs, and they're easy, but as I got better, I searched for more difficult stuff, and people who I could play with, and there's where the "Welcome" factor shows up. If newcomers feel welcome with their scores, then our community will be popular again.


TL;DR: Let's go back in time a little and step streamy things again, and praise newcomers like we praise experienced players.


Edit:

Originally Posted by who_cares973

Technicality>fun factor

Oh, a game is supposed to be technical before fun? That's interesting, Carlos.

[Patashu]

thanks for posting this 100% correct

[Eriol-kun]

One of the reasons why I think I lag as a simfile artist even though I've known StepMania and wanted to make my own steps for probably more than 4 or 5 years now (besides being lazy at times, busy at times, both at the same time even more often), is creating a song that fits a type of 'standard', knowing when to use trills, jacks, jumpstreams that make some sort of musical sense and a "fun" (read: totally subjective) pattern, instead of simply stepping to my feel. I try to make "clean looking" simfiles, and me being a perfectionst, usually end up either scrapping the whole thing or giving up on the song because I usually don't understand the standard people like.

I probably need to analyze other simfiles and copy from their expeRIeNcE, but why shouldn't I do it with my own feel and "style"? Which is the way QED probably thinks and steps. I am quite traditional, but I get lnick's point and why StepMania is the current StepMania.

[Patashu]

btw fixing this can't really be done from the community up because of what you mentioned, the 'ooh I know that song' draw of Stepmania. I say this all the time because it's true but we need something like osu with its quality controlled centralized database, where everyone has the same files to choose from and people willing to step every kind of song, which over the years builds and builds and builds covering everything likely. there is no good service for this atm - all the simfile databases currently have no quality control or feedback mechanisms, nothing interactive, they feel lifeless. basically stepmania and a site for it need to be redesigned entirely to incorporate all this stuff. I've heard that stepmania 4.0 is letting you upload files from within the editor which is a good start but it's not being implemented fast enough or with any motivation really

also, sometime go onto bemanistyle's forums and look at the 'original simfile requests' thread. you'll find a thousand people asking for simfiles for their favourite bands. not one of those posts is ever fulfilled

also I watch peeps play qed's files from time to time and while it is disorienting to see notes during silence and stuff like that I can empathize with what's being done in them, and the way patterns are naturally extended to fill space is clearly qed's way of reaching the ideal for a file, just like I reach the ideal for a file by layering until I'm out of columns

also damn I've been around for forever. i want to retire but nnggggh need to finish psbp2 first

[EvilDoRuk]

"Oh, QED was in OD back in 2007, huh? Man OD files really suck!"

<RiguruNaitobagu> I think QED still puts arrows to nothing
<MedukaKenomu> rofl
<RiguruNaitobagu> and that isn't style
<RiguruNaitobagu> it's just putting arrows to nothing
<RiguruNaitobagu> Which pretty much just takes your arguement apart right there
<MedukaKenomu> you see, I beat around the bush for stepping simply because I want to follow a standard that seems set here
<AnaruCalibur> But it's The Style Of Putting Arrows To Nothing am i wrong?
<RiguruNaitobagu> No
<RiguruNaitobagu> It'd suck pretty bad if QED got into the bemani team and started putting ghost arrows down in keysounded files
<RiguruNaitobagu> People would have no idea why they were there and why they made no sound
<AnaruCalibur> Ok Yeah
<AnaruCalibur> well, i ststill don't get whatyou see is WRONG with that
<RiguruNaitobagu> Because each song is different and that is what allows patterns to be unique
<RiguruNaitobagu> because each song has its own uniqueness
<RiguruNaitobagu> When was the last time you played st castawayhand
<RiguruNaitobagu> When was the last time you enjoyed playing st castawayhand
<MedukaKenomu> one that you may see in a different light from QED... is probably Nick's point
<AnaruCalibur> I never played st castawayhand though
<AnaruCalibur> because I didnt like the song (OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[I wonder whether people who like castaway enjoy playing stcastawayhand]

<RiguruNaitobagu> Yeah well if all simfiles were copypasted scarhand charts onto different songs it'd suck
<RiguruNaitobagu> which is what QED generally does because herp derp even they say it themselves that they're "16th patterns we're used to seeing from you"
<RiguruNaitobagu> When I play your files I don't say
<RiguruNaitobagu> Oh Hey It'S Definitely A Nick FIle Because I Recognise Those 16ths!
<AnaruCalibur> well, i still know people whove usually said "damn, that's a nick file, i like it because how he stepped it", so its apparent i have an way of stepping that appeals to people, so how is that diff then QED
<RiguruNaitobagu> Most people don't alter their bpm to affect the arrow colour
<RiguruNaitobagu> That's about the most noticeable thing
<RiguruNaitobagu> I think the biggest deal about simfiles is them being clean
<RiguruNaitobagu> and not cluttered
<RiguruNaitobagu> which is hard to do
<RiguruNaitobagu> and you seem to be able to do that well
<RiguruNaitobagu> and so does QED
<RiguruNaitobagu> but he still puts down ghost arrows for no reason

But regardless of who steps right or wrong, presumably there are people out there who enjoy QED files and people who enjoy your "elitist" files and therefore there's no reason to think "stepping style" somehow contributes to the number of people interested in playing this game over any other.

Trends come and go. Get used to it.

[ddrxero64]

This is where I would have doubled if not tripled that post.

I'm like a computer running on 1% battery, I'm running out of motivation. I have one more thing happening for me, and if that doesn't go right, I think I'm just going to retire.

QED downloaded stepmania, joined OD and made files. He wasn't accepted by the community for whatever reasons, and he left. What qualifies him to represent a stepmania workshop? I don't care how he steps, because there is no right way. But looking at the flipside, he thinks he's stepping the right way. He's just as wrong as everyone else. I on the other hand try to be open to suggestions. His workshop was biased, and even in the attempt to encourage people to play and make files for stepmania did he fail horribly. Don't bother defending QED, because he's wrong. Not on how to step, on thinking that his way is better.

I'm getting ready to retire. I've had enough of the community. People here can't make one simple move, create one simple graphic, and can't decide to just try someone else's idea without having to rebel or disagree. Everyone here feels that their opinion is more important than the next person. I see myself a year from now playing some other game on some other site being a nobody. The way it should be really, because my work here is in vain.

I've been typing and doing things for people for the past 3 days. I've pulled an all nighter, and it's 10:45 am. And yet I sit here typing. You can accuse me of just writing out of anger all you want, but I write out of disappointment. I've run out of this motivation and patience. I've gone into debt and lost the opportunity to go to college trying to revive stepmania. I admit, I'm an idiot for having put so much effort into this community. Who am I to think I could be the next synthlight. It's ridiculous to see a thread like this now, because I've been speaking these words since before SMO shut down. I will pull a post from February of last year showing the same dedication I had, and showing the same concern I had for the community. This only shows how much nothing has changed.

I have one email to send today, and it'll probably decide my fate in this community. If it goes well, I could have something good happening for SMO. If it doesn't, well, it just might be time to say my goodbyes. I've run my life into rock bottom trying to bring this community together. stepmania.com can't even respond to stepmaniaonline.com huh. That's where I realized how sad things have become.

[TC_Halogen]

Many of the problems that nick has brought up (amazing read, by the way, it REALLY makes you think back) might happen to do with the need to be different, or to evolve the style of simfile making. I've too run into the issue of trying to devise my own style of stepping for a while, but was afraid of what other people would think of them. After a while, I got to the point of just making simfiles for songs the way that I want to, trying to avoid the normally mechanical style of stepping while still maintaining that relevancy to the music.

The thing that irritates me most about QED is that he acts like he's the only person who is capable of stepping in this (his) manner, thinking that syncopation and natural rhythm is entirely uncommon, when in reality, it's the most ideal way to step for pad. Not only that, but he will defend his points regardless of how ridiculous they sound. Not only that, but he feels like he is the only person capable of telling others how to improve their SM experience, when it's just not true.

Back to the topic of files though, why have things gotten this way? When did the files change, and who were the people who allowed it to happen? It leaves a lot open for discussion.

EDIT: dammit, my entire part about QED got ninja'd, haha

[Jousway]

Originally Posted by EvilDoRuk

"Oh, QED was in OD back in 2007, huh? Man OD files really suck!"




But regardless of who steps right or wrong, presumably there are people out there who enjoy QED files and people who enjoy your "elitist" files and therefore there's no reason to think "stepping style" somehow contributes to the number of people interested in playing this game over any other.

Trends come and go. Get used to it.

your post shows a great example why I see so many people not liking OD files, because they all need to follow these rules and be "elite" most people that play OD tell me that they are boring, they might be fun to you guys, but people I talk with call them boring, and say the files are a lot like eachother in OD but thats because of all those rules,

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

QED downloaded stepmania, joined OD and made files. He wasn't accepted by the community for whatever reasons, and he left. What qualifies him to represent a stepmania workshop? I don't care how he steps, because there is no right way. But looking at the flipside, he thinks he's stepping the right way. He's just as wrong as everyone else. I on the other hand try to be open to suggestions. His workshop was biased, and even in the attempt to encourage people to play and make files for stepmania did he fail horribly. Don't bother defending QED, because he's wrong. Not on how to step, on thinking that his way is better.

sorry but you're wrong, when you are like "QED files are wrong" you still need to see it the right way, the reason people say its wrong is because they all became these so called hurp durp elites on ffr with stepping, the thing is, by ffr standards he is wrong, but globaly he isnt wrong, who can say his files are right or wrong when its just an open project game were everyone can do what they want, I play files from a load of diffrent comunitys for a load of diffrent gameplay and the file diffrence between these comunity's is masive, so you can tell them they are wrong and they can tell you that you are wrong but in the end no one is wrong because there is no pre defined good file and never will be, everyone steps files the way they see it and feel it, the end.

[sakura080789]

i think FFR should put together a new kb pack of old style kb charts of streams theory and simple MA type stuff for people who are getting into SM

[Reincarnate]

Files have become shittier over the years. I don't care about music theory BS or how well your steps match the crescendo of the seventh key in FU minor. They all suck. One of the reasons I quit playing keyboard rhythm games was (aside from hand damage) that the files have just turned into shit. Too many awkward patterns and overcomplicated crapgluts.

It reminds me a lot of the food industry, actually. If you go to high-end restaurants in NYC or in Europe, the craze now is centered around molecular gastronomy and bringing meals to the next level. Unfortunately, this usually results in things like... flavored foam, liquid nitrogen, and meals that fit on a spoon and cost you a week's pay. Yes, it may be technically cool. Yes, it may be advanced compared to what your grandma made. Yes, it may be the nexus of the pinnacle of the apex of the synergy between the cultural revolutionary BSitudinal dialectic and the social commentary on the progression of technological application all wrapped together and presented in one huge ego-stroking orgasm. But at the end of the day, son of a bitch I just want my ****ing steak and potatoes.

When you get good at something, it can become boring. Eventually you have to make things challenging for yourself by playing like Madmatt, who keeps himself busy by vibrate-raping the pad brackets in order to match the speeds of some 9001 BPM fuckstream because anything slower is a guaranteed 98%+.

But that doesn't mean you have to keep making your files more and more ridiculous. Even an easy file can be fun. It eventually starts to become a community where anything easy is bashed and anything challenging is lauded. It drives people away until the community basically rests on a few elitist assholes, and then when they start leaving too, it's all dead.

In other words, people need to be OK with making easier files. You need to be OK with stepping a file because the song is cool and the steps are fun. We need creativity -- which is what made DDR/Stepmania fun over the years -- and not monotonous, braindead, algorithmic application of steps.

[Reincarnate]

I have an idea. Why not try an interesting experiment: A sort of community-created simfile. Everyone decides on a file, and then the song itself is split up into portions and people vote/debate on how the steps should fit for the sake of maximizing fun. Other new ideas can be proposed in terms of background animations, etc.

Doesn't have to go exactly like that, but it can be a starting point for getting a feel for how people step vs. what people want vs. whatever you get the idea. Then again it's possible that a democratic method would fall apart here if too many people suck, but it's meant to just be a brainstorm.

[sakura080789]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Files have become shittier over the years. I don't care about music theory BS or how well your steps match the crescendo of the seventh key in FU minor. They all suck. One of the reasons I quit playing keyboard rhythm games was (aside from hand damage) that the files have just turned into shit. Too many awkward patterns and overcomplicated crapgluts.

It reminds me a lot of the food industry, actually. If you go to high-end restaurants in NYC or in Europe, the craze now is centered around molecular gastronomy and bringing meals to the next level. Unfortunately, this usually results in things like... flavored foam and liquid nitrogen. Yes, it may be technically cool. Yes, it may be advanced compared to what your grandma made. Yes, it may be the nexus of the pinnacle of the apex of the synergy between the cultural revolutionary BSitudinal dialectic and the social commentary on the progression of technological application all wrapped together and presented in one huge ego-stroking orgasm. But at the end of the day, son of a bitch I just want my ****ing steak and potatoes.

When you get good at something, it can become boring. Eventually you have to make things challenging for yourself by playing like Madmatt, who keeps himself busy by vibrate-raping the pad brackets in order to match the speeds of some 9001 BPM fuckstream because anything slower is a guaranteed 98%+.

But that doesn't mean you have to keep making your files more and more ridiculous. Even an easy file can be fun. It eventually starts to become a community where anything easy is bashed and anything challenging is lauded. It drives people away until the community basically rests on a few elitist assholes, and then when they start leaving too, it's all dead.

In other words, people need to be OK with making easier files. You need to be OK with stepping a file because the song is cool and the steps are fun. We need creativity -- which is what made DDR/Stepmania fun over the years -- and not monotonous, braindead, algorithmic application of steps.

^this oh snap Reincarnate you read my mind. i am not gonna lie there are new style charts i enjoy but alot of my SM time is playing old KBC, F4/F5, even the Long Versions Packs those i enjoyed. but like the LCMP and DCMP i also like there are certain patterns that make the files quite epic im not really gonna dump on the new style of charting but i have grown to like quite a few of the new charts and simfile creators. i think it would be nice to take a step back in time to make a few packs of old school stepcharts though it would be fun for the new players as well as the veterans who enjoy the old charts

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Jousway

/trollpost

Jousway, you really have no logic in your post. I'm not calling his style wrong, he is wrong for thinking his style is superior. You're taking the chance to quote me and try to prove me wrong over personal grudges, stop acting so childish. Even I have a bit more insight on simfile making than you, and I don't even have much experience. But unlike you, I'm willing to play a song I can't pass and enjoy it because it was stepped pretty creatively.

Look over your post, I'm not talking about his style, I'm talking about his attitude. Do you even register the sentences coming out of your mouth (metaphorically speaking, because I can already tell you'll be the person to take that literally and say you're typing not speaking, hole in logic covered, try to find some other petty detail to rant on about) before you open it?

I really think that Reincarnate's idea would be awesome. But guess what? It's going to be tough for a lot of people to lower their standards. People have become so accustomed to judging files with such a technical eye that they can't enjoy a file without pitch relevancy. I feel that people are more focused on how the file is stepped versus how fun it is. Of course everyone just said this, but now imagine you really do start this. Will people be able to lower their standards? If so, to what? Who will be the "credible" judges for it? You still need judges, because some files can be out of sync, which is never a stylistic thing to do. A lot of these questions will seem easier now, but when the time comes no one will be able to agree on certain things.

If it came down to it, I'd strip everyone of their reputation and treat everyone's file submissions equal. Don't expect Person A's file to be better than Person B's. I actually think it would be cool to have:

An anonymous submission pack. Every file is going to be anonymously submitted, no one will know you stepped it. Right before the pack is released, everyone announces the song they stepped and uploads their cdtitle. How the judges will be picked I wouldn't know, I don't plan on arguing over things like that. But I would suggest 3 REALLY different judges. One who's technical on everything (whether keyboard or pad), one who could care less about rules and more about fun, and one who knows nothing about judging and just enjoys the game. This type of experiment could give people insight on how the stepmania community really views styles and songs.

Edit: To be honest, if this did happen I wouldn't mind being the guy to receive all the files and distribute them to the judges. I'm used to organizing lists and thoughts, and I could create some analyses on the trends of reviews as compared to who stepped it, how it was stepped, etc. I don't plan to judge it at all, but I would be thoroughly interested in keeping the validity of an experiment like this.

[AsphyxZero]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I have an idea. Why not try an interesting experiment: A sort of community-created simfile. Everyone decides on a file, and then the song itself is split up into portions and people vote/debate on how the steps should fit for the sake of maximizing fun. Other new ideas can be proposed in terms of background animations, etc.

Actually a couple of us from profile chat are doing this for a FFR file. I would love to try something like this for SM.

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I have an idea. Why not try an interesting experiment: A sort of community-created simfile. Everyone decides on a file, and then the song itself is split up into portions and people vote/debate on how the steps should fit for the sake of maximizing fun. Other new ideas can be proposed in terms of background animations, etc.

A while ago I was thinking of making a little minipack by choosing some interesting and complicated songs, and then having people vote and work together to make the most fun and interesting file possible (while going to the music of course). I ended up not bothering though.

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

An anonymous submission pack. Every file is going to be anonymously submitted, no one will know you stepped it.

That's an interesting idea too, but then you'd get files from people like me.


I don't really like the current brand of technical file so much either; that's why when I open up SM I spend much more time playing dumps. I think going to the song at some level is an *essential* part of what makes a chart good, but if you try to put too much into a file it just becomes awkward and annoying to play. Look at some of Xandertrax's harder files, where he tried to go to the song as much as possible. Look at most xoon type charts. Minifreezes, hands all over the place, jacks for no obvious reason, stupid bursts, totally overcharted jumpstream sections, all those problems are the same.

If we want more people in the community, we need more good easy files. It's really as simple as that - people like to play files at the difficulties they are comfortable with, so if left to their own devices the good players will make files that most people have no chance of passing. A good easy file should be (a) roughly onbeat and related to the song, and (b) not so easy that it's boring. Other than that, there's really nothing objective you can say. And if the new players want to play files specifically because they like the song, so be it. QED has the right idea, although he totally fails in attitude.

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by qqwref

If we want more people in the community, we need more good easy files. It's really as simple as that - people like to play files at the difficulties they are comfortable with

Pretty much. Be careful with that though, there have been packs like that already. Patashu said his Super Meat Boy pack was full of easy charts, and even though I haven't played it I believe it. You also need to promote these easy charts as much as you do the hard ones. It ties in with welcoming new members and encouraging them to play these packs. I think it's awesome when someone who isn't as good can play the same song as you on SMO on an easier chart. Believe it or not this happens a lot with OD, which is why there is a good sized OD fanbase. The technical people love the hard charts while the people who aren't quite good can enjoy their anime openings on easier charts.

All of you that play SMO should know who Eduardo/Eduardo-sama is, the guy who always goes on and plays the same OD songs for hours. He did it a lot more before, especially before the shut down of the original server, now he goes on every so often. But I mean all he plays are the OD packs. What I didn't know is that he plays all the 8-10 footer charts, especially standard. I can enter the room with him and enjoy a song on 12 while he plays it on heavy 10 (Chain, Air Gear, 2nd Anime Mix). It's things like this that can close the gap between new players and pros. That and not treating them like crap when they upload an easy score they're proud of.