Queue/Batch Discussion Thread - Page 66

**bmah** · 03-12-2007, 11:33 PM

May I suggest something Shash? Maybe you and Tass can stop defending yourself so much against other people's objections and actually consider the outcomes between what you're currently doing and what other people suggest (e.g. Shash saying, "Too much text, here's my response: blablabla" and thus pretty much disregarding any other possibilities). It's easy not to admit mistakes (e.g. Tass makes a counterargument, valid or not, and thus, "to summarize...you're wrong"), and it's easy to assume that the current method of judging does not need any modifications, but I think you guys are overly stiff. Granted, both of you have increased the popularity of FFR to a new level (which I'm totally happy about), but realize that not all problems are solved yet.

I DO have issues with this system; however, you don't see me speaking out so much as hi19 or the others, because any objection is futile and I do want to have the best chances possible to get my submission in the game. As a player, I would not fully blame the simfile author for making "bad" steps; part of the blame IMO is due to the resistance of the judging system to adhere to any change (it has pros and cons, but seriously, it's not the best system, stop denying and ADMIT IT). But ultimately, it's up to you and Shash, and I have no more to say.

edit: about step 2 - I'm undecided on this.

**Rebirth0** · 03-13-2007, 12:07 AM

You could do your, playing the file twice thing. But I really don't see why you can't tell if the file is good or bad after playing it one time. I certainly can.

Shash: I guess I can admit that I want all of my simfiles accepted, but who really doesn't? Now, I just want some more reason as to why my simfiles are rejected other than just "overstepped"

**hi19hi19** · 03-13-2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tass n Shash

We're stubborn and we're also right so we don't listen to anything nyah nyah

Goodbye.

**Shashakiro** · 03-13-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah

May I suggest something Shash? Maybe you and Tass can stop defending yourself so much against other people's objections and actually consider the outcomes between what you're currently doing and what other people suggest (e.g. Shash saying, "Too much text, here's my response: blablabla" and thus pretty much disregarding any other possibilities).

Like I said: I'm very open-minded, and I've listened and thought about every suggestion that's been made. The problem is, most of the time, all we're getting is bitching, not any actual offer of a better way. And none of the actual suggestions I've read would work, IMO. Either a lot more work is created for us, or not all the judges play all the files (inherently bad idea). If you or anyone can come up with a fairer way that doesn't cause one of those problems (less the first, especially the second) or any other obvious ones, I'm all ears.

Quote:

It's easy not to admit mistakes (e.g. Tass makes a counterargument, valid or not, and thus, "to summarize...you're wrong"), and it's easy to assume that the current method of judging does not need any modifications, but I think you guys are overly stiff. Granted, both of you have increased the popularity of FFR to a new level (which I'm totally happy about), but realize that not all problems are solved yet.

We have no problem admitting mistakes (see Incognito), and we have no problem making modifications to the judging critera based on the reactions of the players. All that we refuse to do is act on the bitching of the file authors, because they're inherently biased and just want to have an easier/more fun time with getting files into the game, rather than having a vested interest in actually improving file quality.

Quote:

because any objection is futile and I do want to have the best chances possible to get my submission in the game.

If you're suggesting that complaining about the system will cause us to judge your file more strictly, you're just wrong. Look at Hi19 and Rebirth: two of the complainers, and they probably get more files accepted than everyone else combined.

Quote:

As a player, I would not fully blame the simfile author for making "bad" steps; part of the blame IMO is due to the resistance of the judging system to adhere to any change

Again, we have no problem changing the judging system based on the reactions of the players. That's not what this is about.

**Tasselfoot** · 03-13-2007, 12:20 AM

rebirth... when was the last time you went and played 70 unique and different files, by 20 or so different people, of vastly different difficulties and qualities... in either 1 or 2 big lump sittings?

vastly different than just playing a few files for ****s and giggles and judging. and yea, we could play everything twice... but then it'd likely take twice as long to update. each batch is a solid 5 hours or so worth of playing.

it isn't a cut and dry process. we aren't perfect. we do the best we can, and overall the results are positive. frankly, i'm quite happy with that. BUT... i definitely think that if we re-play those files we feel are of high quality a 2nd time, it'll better enable us to judge accordingly. especially since we'll go into that second playing with a mindset of "man, all these files better kick some ass, as we accepted them the 1st time through." plus, they'll be judged solely vs other accepted files, as opposed to ANY file.

**bmah** · 03-13-2007, 12:29 AM

Oh, I see. The problem might stem from opinions, ie. the opinion of Shash/Tass vs. opinion of sim author/FFR players/anyone else. Maybe we should "test" out people's suggestions on enhancing the judgement system? Instead of predicting and saying, "that's probably not a good idea" or "I'm not sure how or if that works," why don't we implement other people's ideas temporarily? This way, we can REALLY see if someone's suggestion to improve the judging system works or not. You just might come across a very doable idea, just serendipity. The only problem I see is that there could be a lot of work involved, checking to see if something works and either keeping the idea or discarding it.

And Shash, you have valid points there. It's just that we need to solve the issue of opinion; there needs to be a method to really test out people's proposals.

**smartdude1212** · 03-13-2007, 12:53 AM

What the ****.
Everyone hates Incog.
I LIKE IT.
MORE STEPS LIKE INCOG.
MORE I SAY.

//endrant

**Rebirth0** · 03-13-2007, 01:08 AM

I wasn't really complaining about playing the files twice. It WOULD double your time playing the files, which I know you do not want to do.

Do you play every single file all the way through? If a file sucks for the first 45 seconds or so, it will most likely suck for the rest of the file. If there's a sim like that, I probably wouldn't even play the whole thing through. Seeing as this is different than a stepmania simfile pack, I can understand playing the file all the way through. You are giving criticism on every file.

Even though you probably wouldn't take my offer... I still have a large amount of free time on my hands every day of every week. I would gladly take a small 10 - 15 file batch (from the main batch you guys play weekly) and filter the good files out from the bad, and send the ones that are worthy of actual judging to you guys. Of course, since you all comment on every single file, I would have to as well. It would help you guys out, and would make you slightly happier to not have to play an extra 30 - 60 minutes of simfiles because of the work that I did. You guys would have to trust me on my judging though, I do know exactly what I'm doing.

I'd be willing to do this anytime, even though you'll probably say that you don't want me to

**Shashakiro** · 03-13-2007, 02:00 AM

Thankfully, at least for me, Stepmania is inherently fun enough so that I don't really care about the quality of the file I'm playing, work-wise. Actually, I find it far worse to go through a long, easy, and good file than a short, hard, and terrible file.

Basically, it doesn't really matter how many I have to go through, because it's not really work anyway...so it's not a huge deal.

I think we'll just play all the ones we initially +'d again, to make sure we weren't being retarded or lazy with the + (incog). Wouldn't take much more time at all, really.

**windsurfer-sp** · 03-13-2007, 02:52 AM

Completly Off Current Topic: Is there any chance of a TGWP marathon being made/relased into FFR?

FFR4EVA_00 · 03-13-2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp

Completly Off Current Topic: Is there any chance of a TGWP marathon being made/relased into FFR?

No.

Engler · 03-13-2007, 05:19 AM

I just want an update. And I realize it will take time.

**macgravel** · 03-13-2007, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engler

I just want an update. And I realize it will take time.

Ok then, stop posting about it and wait.

Engler · 03-13-2007, 05:57 AM

I could say the same for you, but that would just be rude.

**macgravel** · 03-13-2007, 06:42 AM

I'm wanting to step something else, but I'm not find anything good on the Blanket page, haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engler

I could say the same for you, but that would just be rude.

No you couldn't. I haven't posted in this thread asking about an update 4 times in less than a week.

Vishnal · 03-13-2007, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shashakiro

If you're suggesting that complaining about the system will cause us to judge your file more strictly, you're just wrong. Look at Hi19 and Rebirth: two of the complainers, and they probably get more files accepted than everyone else combined.

Yea, because they send you more files than all of us combined, right?

I'm not for or against the judging, seeing how you and Tass are usually right when it comes to judging my files. I have no moral problem making steps less boring or syncing a little better. In fact, the ONE qualm I have is with the long waits between updates on the files. It took almost 3 weeks to get feedback for my files, and all I'm saying is that maybe it's not that easy to wait so long, because by then I usually forget most of my files anyway. Like with lolEND; I waited forever, and I can't seem to fix it up anymore...

I guess that's just my problem, though; I don't have a lot of patience for long waits. Do what you need to, though, Shash.

wickedawesomeful · 03-13-2007, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vishnal

Yea, because they send you more files than all of us combined, right?

They probably have the a way better percentage of files accepted than most stepfile artists do, as well. It's because they make better quality files, not because they make more of them.

**pokelda** · 03-13-2007, 09:08 AM

WTF I CANT READ ALL THIS FLAMING SIHT!

post the list already D:

**Tasselfoot** · 03-13-2007, 12:15 PM

i still have 20 files to play. Shash likely has more... i'll be done with them in 60-90 minutes. Shash won't be home for a few hours, then he has to play the rest of the batch, then we have to discuss them.

how about this... if there ISN'T an update by... 3am EST wednesday morning... I'll add 5 new public release songs.

**Brilliant Dynamite Neon** · 03-13-2007, 12:16 PM

Sweet.

03-12-2007, 11:33 PM	#1301
bmah shots FIRED Global Moderator, User Support, Judge Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Edmonton, AB Age: 36 Posts: 8,448	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue May I suggest something Shash? Maybe you and Tass can stop defending yourself so much against other people's objections and actually consider the outcomes between what you're currently doing and what other people suggest (e.g. Shash saying, "Too much text, here's my response: blablabla" and thus pretty much disregarding any other possibilities). It's easy not to admit mistakes (e.g. Tass makes a counterargument, valid or not, and thus, "to summarize...you're wrong"), and it's easy to assume that the current method of judging does not need any modifications, but I think you guys are overly stiff. Granted, both of you have increased the popularity of FFR to a new level (which I'm totally happy about), but realize that not all problems are solved yet. I DO have issues with this system; however, you don't see me speaking out so much as hi19 or the others, because any objection is futile and I do want to have the best chances possible to get my submission in the game. As a player, I would not fully blame the simfile author for making "bad" steps; part of the blame IMO is due to the resistance of the judging system to adhere to any change (it has pros and cons, but seriously, it's not the best system, stop denying and ADMIT IT). But ultimately, it's up to you and Shash, and I have no more to say. edit: about step 2 - I'm undecided on this. Last edited by bmah; 03-13-2007 at 12:20 AM..

03-13-2007, 12:07 AM	#1302
Rebirth0 FFR Originalbro Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Age: 33 Posts: 8,750	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue You could do your, playing the file twice thing. But I really don't see why you can't tell if the file is good or bad after playing it one time. I certainly can. Shash: I guess I can admit that I want all of my simfiles accepted, but who really doesn't? Now, I just want some more reason as to why my simfiles are rejected other than just "overstepped"

03-13-2007, 12:20 AM	#1305
Tasselfoot Retired BOSS Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Widget Heaven Age: 40 Posts: 25,184	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue rebirth... when was the last time you went and played 70 unique and different files, by 20 or so different people, of vastly different difficulties and qualities... in either 1 or 2 big lump sittings? vastly different than just playing a few files for ****s and giggles and judging. and yea, we could play everything twice... but then it'd likely take twice as long to update. each batch is a solid 5 hours or so worth of playing. it isn't a cut and dry process. we aren't perfect. we do the best we can, and overall the results are positive. frankly, i'm quite happy with that. BUT... i definitely think that if we re-play those files we feel are of high quality a 2nd time, it'll better enable us to judge accordingly. especially since we'll go into that second playing with a mindset of "man, all these files better kick some ass, as we accepted them the 1st time through." plus, they'll be judged solely vs other accepted files, as opposed to ANY file. __________________ RIP

03-13-2007, 12:29 AM	#1306
bmah shots FIRED Global Moderator, User Support, Judge Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Edmonton, AB Age: 36 Posts: 8,448	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue Oh, I see. The problem might stem from opinions, ie. the opinion of Shash/Tass vs. opinion of sim author/FFR players/anyone else. Maybe we should "test" out people's suggestions on enhancing the judgement system? Instead of predicting and saying, "that's probably not a good idea" or "I'm not sure how or if that works," why don't we implement other people's ideas temporarily? This way, we can REALLY see if someone's suggestion to improve the judging system works or not. You just might come across a very doable idea, just serendipity. The only problem I see is that there could be a lot of work involved, checking to see if something works and either keeping the idea or discarding it. And Shash, you have valid points there. It's just that we need to solve the issue of opinion; there needs to be a method to really test out people's proposals. Last edited by bmah; 03-13-2007 at 01:32 AM..

03-13-2007, 12:53 AM	#1307
smartdude1212 2 is poo Join Date: Sep 2005 Age: 32 Posts: 6,687	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue What the ****. Everyone hates Incog. I LIKE IT. MORE STEPS LIKE INCOG. MORE I SAY. //endrant

03-13-2007, 01:08 AM	#1308
Rebirth0 FFR Originalbro Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Age: 33 Posts: 8,750	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue I wasn't really complaining about playing the files twice. It WOULD double your time playing the files, which I know you do not want to do. Do you play every single file all the way through? If a file sucks for the first 45 seconds or so, it will most likely suck for the rest of the file. If there's a sim like that, I probably wouldn't even play the whole thing through. Seeing as this is different than a stepmania simfile pack, I can understand playing the file all the way through. You are giving criticism on every file. Even though you probably wouldn't take my offer... I still have a large amount of free time on my hands every day of every week. I would gladly take a small 10 - 15 file batch (from the main batch you guys play weekly) and filter the good files out from the bad, and send the ones that are worthy of actual judging to you guys. Of course, since you all comment on every single file, I would have to as well. It would help you guys out, and would make you slightly happier to not have to play an extra 30 - 60 minutes of simfiles because of the work that I did. You guys would have to trust me on my judging though, I do know exactly what I'm doing. I'd be willing to do this anytime, even though you'll probably say that you don't want me to

03-13-2007, 02:52 AM	#1310
windsurfer-sp FFR Veteran Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Aussie (Oi Oi Oi) Age: 33 Posts: 1,974	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue Completly Off Current Topic: Is there any chance of a TGWP marathon being made/relased into FFR? __________________ Orbb fan club. White text society.

03-13-2007, 05:19 AM	#1312
Engler FFR Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CNY Age: 31 Posts: 2,339	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue I just want an update. And I realize it will take time. __________________

03-13-2007, 05:57 AM	#1314
Engler FFR Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CNY Age: 31 Posts: 2,339	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue I could say the same for you, but that would just be rude. __________________

03-13-2007, 09:08 AM	#1318
pokelda ⁽ ´ཀ`⁾ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: It is a mystery. Posts: 3,876	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue WTF I CANT READ ALL THIS FLAMING SIHT! post the list already D: __________________

03-13-2007, 12:15 PM	#1319
Tasselfoot Retired BOSS Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Widget Heaven Age: 40 Posts: 25,184	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue i still have 20 files to play. Shash likely has more... i'll be done with them in 60-90 minutes. Shash won't be home for a few hours, then he has to play the rest of the batch, then we have to discuss them. how about this... if there ISN'T an update by... 3am EST wednesday morning... I'll add 5 new public release songs. __________________ RIP

03-13-2007, 12:16 PM	#1320
Brilliant Dynamite Neon nobody fiffers anymore. Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 6-arrow land Age: 31 Posts: 2,440	Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue Sweet. __________________ ~ OFFICIALLY RETIRED FROM FFR THE GAME AND FFR TWG ~ Thanks for the memories, folks. u da bes

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