DP/RATO move to tokens?

[Choofers]

mad_scientist_computer_exploding.rtf

[RagedBerserker]

Originally Posted by Fission

indeed. i don't want to derail this thread in that direction. even though i have the unpopular opinion, i hope people can at least see where i am coming from.

Oh no I absolutely hear what you are saying. But I suppose it follows the idea that this game is seen by everyone as a completionist game, which I am sure differs among the community.

[awein999]

I am against it if it means files of dp/rato difficulty or harder are not supposed to be public.
I'm fine with it if those songs are replaced by equally hard or harder songs that are "better stepped".

[mi40]

okay we step WIFO soon

[Doug31]

So no really hard songs should be public? That doesn't sound like it should be the case to me. But then again, this would make it easier for me to FC 99% of songs by a significant amount, so go for it.

[mi40]

it's not just "really hard"
it's "almost impossible to AAA"

most people dont understand how stupidly difficulty these two particular files are

everything else in the game is moderately doable and has an acceptable score spread, but on files like death piano & rato, the score spread is absolutely ridiculous since the amount of skill required to get a good score is exponentially higher (rank 1 on dp is <20g, rank 10 is like 100g)

[TC_Halogen]

It's even worse on RATO, where rank 1 is just over 25 goods, but rank 4 is a touch over 100 goods.

[Pseudo Enigma]

the horse has probably been beaten to a pulp already, but I wouldn't know because I didn't read the 3-page-essay

DP/RATO were the plague of my level ranks. I've wanted to see it out for years.
PLEASE.

[samurai7694]

Here's my take on those two files:

Death Piano is at least possible to AAA. I've tied Dossar with 8-0-0-1 up until the 48th note roll after the 12th note quadjacks (I forget exactly which combo, around 1900 I think). It's "slow" compared to RATO and it's more about jacking/trilling than anything else. There's a nice forgiving break in the middle. However, very few people can actually hit those one hand 24th note trills unless somehow manipulating the late/early perfects by hitting them as jumps or grace notes. The vibrating trill with the 48th note roll at the end is also really stupid and hard to AAA (Crowdpleaser is also bs). It's a struggle to have both good accuracy and an FC all in one run so some people resort to playing it safe and mashing to maintain that FC.


With RATO there's no break in between. It's pure stamina-draining shit-patterns for over a minute. The frames are absolute garbage on many areas. There's jumpstream anchors, 3-4 arrow 16th note jacks at around 240 BPM, really bad roll transitions that peak up to about 30 nps, it's nasty to look at and not fun to play at all. It's a struggle to even have an FC run even by mashing because you would still need to be a bit speedy on those 48th note bursts (which equals to doing 360 BPM 16th note jumptrills btw). To successfully have an FC just by mashing would still mean consistent jumptrilling for over a minute which is as fun as playing 2 Minute Jack on Stepmania over and over again.


I say move them away from public ranks.

[TC_Halogen]

Luis definitely brings up a valid point about Death Piano being very possible to AAA. While I haven't gotten to the end with nearly as good of a run as 8-0-0-1, I made it to the fastest jumpgluts myself with a 19g FC about two years ago before making a nasty mistake -- never got a run like that again. It's very possible to do well on that file, because all of the components of the chart are very doable. It is very extreme, though.

[Doug31]

But when I first started out, this game wasn't about FCing songs. I thought it was fun just to try to pass songs. If you get rid of most of the hard to pass songs, then it could prevent new players from being able to do that until they could pass the songs too easily and then the fun is lost. For me, trying to pass Revo when I first started playing was probably the most fun I've ever had in this game.

And if everyone has better level ranks, but it's easier to get a better level rank, we really haven't gained much. You'll know it wasn't that you worked harder to get the lower number than you did before. It'd feel more like the equivalent of as if everyone just had their level rank reduced by a similar amount.

[Choofers]

a lot of the 90s and above are still very hard to pass for lower division players, not just rato/dp/revo

like samurai and everyone has stated, rato and dp are on an entirely different level, even for the top players.

[Dynam0]

The 48th rolls in rato are equal to 720bpm 16th rolls I thought? (basically a 180bpm 32nd jump-trill)

Yeah I guess I'm for this too...either that or leave them and move to raw scoring and just get it over with *gasp*

[mi40]

or you know we could remove RATO from the game
and move DP to a skill token just like P4U v1 and shit

[RagedBerserker]

Originally Posted by dynam0

the 48th rolls in rato are equal to 720bpm 16th rolls i thought? (basically a 180bpm 32nd jump-trill)

yeah i guess i'm for this too...either that or leave them and move to raw scoring and just get it over with *gasp*

+110898237872398

[TC_Halogen]

Doug: one of the things you need to realize is that we're trying to move a 98/99 difficulty file to tokens, and 98/99 files are astronomically harder than < 95 songs. The fact that the difference from my 95s (1-0-0-1/2-0-0-1) is 80+ goods from my Death Piano/RATO scores (82-7-4-15/72-33-0-59) when it's supposed to be only a 3/4 point difficulty difference is pretty ridiculous.

There's no difficulty normalization in that area, and if we were to place those files in a difficulty number that is reflective of the difficulty increase between files at 95/96 in difficulty, both RATO/DP would be into the 100s, no question.

[Xayphon]

...no

I disagree adding two of the most legit challenging songs to the Token Levelranks that are not counted towards your actually showing average rank. It's literally like taking a dump on those who spent hours of playing in the past years just to get those two songs of their bottom of their levelranks. And... it really just seems like a dirty way to abuse the unpublic rankings. How about we directly move all the songs that ruin our public rankings because they're too hard to 99.7% of FFR's community to Token Levelranks? ...why are there Token Levelranks anyways? Why not make every token song counting towards your public levelranks as soon as you've unlocked them? Jeez

I know I'm definetely in the minority here, and I know this post is easy to counterargue by saying "There's only a minority that gives a shit about moving Dp/Rato to the Token Levelranks or the Token Levelranks in general" , but stating my honest opinion to make you guys at least think about it... I just can't accept the fact that over all those years these two files are going to be rejected by moving them into some absolutely unnecessary Levelrank page only 0.01% of FFR cares or even knows about. I'm p. sure they will make good skill token rewards, but really, either make the Token Lvlranks counting towards public Lvlranks, or this thread seems like a collective "we hate those two songs in particular because they ruin our average rank" in my eyes.

[awein999]

Originally Posted by mi40

it's not just "really hard"
it's "almost impossible to AAA"

most people dont understand how stupidly difficulty these two particular files are

everything else in the game is moderately doable and has an acceptable score spread, but on files like death piano & rato, the score spread is absolutely ridiculous since the amount of skill required to get a good score is exponentially higher (rank 1 on dp is <20g, rank 10 is like 100g)

This is precisely the reason I support these files. It's interesting to see such a spread in the top players rather than 1g or 2g. There is no reason that that should be a bad thing.

[Choofers]

Originally Posted by Xayphon

either make the Token Lvlranks counting towards public Lvlranks

absolutely not

[TC_Halogen]

Making token level ranks count against public level ranks is horrible, because it screws people over due to an inability to occasionally do stupid things (see: Nanairopanda v2, for example).