Tibet:China:Olympics2008 -Augur of deeper consequences?

[Zythus]

I'm sure everyone is antsy to talk about the currently breaking recent news. Tibet's demonstration for independence became a violent protest when Chinese Security Forces and demonstrators, including Bhuddist Monks, clashed. Tibetan crowds burned shops, cars, military vehicles and at least one tourist bus resulting the death of at least 10 people. Chinese government blame the Dalai Lama, Tibet spiritual leader and previous head of power, for causing the protest. He, however, said that he had naught to do with the decision of the protests. The significance of this is that China is in a critical time right now, hosting the Olympics of summer 2008. Bad publicity of violence will not contribute to the harmonious environment that China is attempting to make to complement the events.


Chinese security forces in Lhasa, Tibet, took cover during a fifth day of protests. The banner overhead reads, “Strengthen public safety management, safeguard political stability.” Beijing is facing the most serious demonstrations in Tibet since the 1980s. -NY Times : http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/wo...=1&oref=slogin




Violence, in this case, it is more directed at China, their treatment to the protesters were inhumane according to western news. China also expressed that Tibet's actions were to denounce China's upcoming games. Western nations endorse this voilence with emphasis and exaggeration on the events of the protest, which is causing much propagandistic reactions from national leaders. Steven Harper, Prime Minister of Canada, for example, refused to attend the opening ceremony of The Games, but will send an important Canadian representative. In response to this, Chinese citizens in Canada are being recruited, assembled, and funded by major Chinese organizations to gather at Ottawa to demonstrate that Steven Harper should recant his decision to miss the Opening Ceremony.
When the Olympic Torch was carried across Paris, France, protesters attempted to extinguish the flames of the torch, causing delay and further security. At some stretches of France, the Torch could not be allowed to be carried and displayed publicly, in fear of protesters. There has been talk of Britain and France both boycotting the Olympics.

My stance on this subject is that the Media is heavily overloading the accusations and events done by the Chinese. Emphasis on the voilence done by Tibetans were minimal. However, due to the infuriation of other countries they have for China, aside from the possibility of cancellation of the Olympic Games 2008, I'm inclined to believe that China may be seen by negative perspectives resulting from this violent demonstration.

What do you think? Is it just to blame China for all the wrongs of this event?
What may result from this globally?

[rzr]

I apologize, but I'm unclear on what it is here I'm to reply to. Like, what are we debating (sorry for the ignorance)?

[devonin]

A bunch of the words in your thread don't seem to be actual words, or at least are using some creative syntax. You might want to look things over a little before posting.

As to the subject at hand: The Free Tibet movement has existed for decades, and much like taiwan, China is in my opinion simply wrong to try insisting that these places must remain part of the Chinese republic. They are baltantly seperate in culture, politics, and outlook, they've long claimed that they wished to be independant, and China is simply refusing, often with lethal force, to allow these "rebellions" to secede from the country.

As regards the olympics, I think the IOC was foolish to give the olympics to China in the first place. I mean, the -Chinese- were actively protesting the IOC inspection of the country, claiming that China is still committing too many human and civil rights abuses to be allowed to host something like the olympics. When your own people are telling the world that you aren't worthy of hosting the games, that should really tell the international community something important.

Simply put, China only -has- a "Harmonious environment" down the barrel of a gun. Only the fact that China has repeatedly shown that it is willing to use lethal force on its own people to "supress rebellion" would hope to keep the country peacable and free of conflict during the olympics.

China is really in a unique place in the world right now, they are a huge country with a gigantic percentage of the population of the earth, and they are slowly moving into the capitalist economy that is going to make them boom as an economic power. But they are putting all of their money and effort into advancement and not infrastructure. They are building a very tall and impressive looking building, but the foundation stinks, and it won't be long before collapses start.

Economically, in that stage of development, a willingness to use people as resources lends itself to very quick upwards growth. The US did this shortly after its formation, and that ended up leading among many other things, to the civil war. China's rampant failure to address the very imoprtant social and political problems internally is going to continue to haunt them. They are quickly losing the ability to control their press and stop information about these abuses from leaking out. They've finally opened their doors to a large number of Western things (The internet, reality TV etc) and it's only going to get worse from here.

As soon as the average citizen can watch someone standing up and claiming that the leader of their country is a liar and a warlord, and not only do they not get killed, they don't even get arrested, things are going to get a mite sticky in the Chinese republic.

[rzr]

Though I agree that China is not supporting or holding up any human rights, it's really a difficult topic to decide on.

I mean, we're used to such a free society that judging Chinese human rights is illogical because of lack of knowledge. The Chinese view things differently than the Western countries. Do you guys follow that? It was difficult to put my thoughts across seeing that my question still hasn't been answered...

[omgitznpv]

Being (mostly) Chinese, myself, and being familiar with China in general, I actually believe that China is at fault, mostly, here. As devonin has stated, the two (China and Tibet), are completely different societies. Tibet should not have to remain with China; they should be able to become independent. However, I do believe that the way Tibet has been protesting is not exactly the greatest; having civilians hurt is not cool in my book.

I also believe that the media is being rather a bit ridiculous. More negatives of the Chinese seem to be mentioned than the amount that actually should be. Some of the western reaction is a bit too much, etc.

[Zythus]

I can understand that Tibet and China are two seperate nations that only have peace when seperate. But evidently, Tibet itself fundalmentally lacks the resources to achieve and maintain sovereignty, if it was seperate, it would only head for doom without 3rd party support.

China's resort to use violence to maintain order, I feel that communism is still indelible and the influence from it is still present. China's economy might be changing, but their ways of old day thinking haven't. Thus, in the past, they've used violence, and so now they will continue to use violence.

[Bynary Fission]

China does not know how to handle situations dealing with dissent and rebellion well. Tiananmen Square, anyone? People certainly have the right to question whether China is capable/allowed to host such an important event.

The Olympics is a time when people from around the world come into foreign lands to host events that bind us together; something that the world participates in and works together for in order to accomplish. It isn't fair that China is denied this right.

On the other hand, referring to my opening sentences, China also lacks the ability to treat others and even it's own people with the basic human rights that all are entitled to. In this sense, they have not earned the right to host the worldwide event that brings humans from all around the globe together. I believe that China must learn and adopt the ways of the Western nations (I'm referring to America and Europe) in terms of democracy, humanism, and civil rights before it is entitled the right to host an event of such magnitude.

When diplomats from other nations came to investigate Tibet a few weeks ago, the Chinese greeted them there and led them through the country showing a peaceful, well-controlled nation that has peace abound. Only one problem. It was scripted. The Chinese chose to lie to us instead of tell the truth, which implies that they don't even believe we have the intelligence or right to know the truth. I would have been greatly insulted, because china thinks so little of the deaths and destruction wrought upon Tibet that they decide just to lie and hide the truth instead of having a spine and telling the truth.

Hosting the Olympics is a PRIVILEGE. Not a right. And China just hasn't earned that right. China needs to move on and overthrow it's brutal Communist dictatorship (a failed type of government), and move out of the Middle Ages. This isn't the year 1300. It's 2008. We don't slaughter everybody who stands in our way or protests us. Until China can grasp this concept, it has not earned the right to host the Olympics.


~Bynary Fission

[Coolgamer]

You ask me, these Olympic games might not be as exciting as the 1972 Summer Olympics, but it should be fairly close. What with China's civil rights record, the pollution, etc... there should be protests globally on a large scale. Justified, in my opinion.

[bmah]

The China-Tibet issue is very complex and has been ongoing for a long time. If you think about it, there are similarities between this issue and the separation of Quebec in Canada. The Tibetans wanted to differentiate themselves from China, but, as Zythus said, Tibet would suffer economically without it's dependency on China. In the past however, Tibet actually was a thriving empire.

To protesters against China, the 2008 Olympics is a perfect (and rare) opportunity to bring up this issue to the attention of everyone else around the globe and attempt to make China lose it's face. By bringing up the issue with Tibet, they reveal China brutal behavior and nationalism, but I don't find China's current actions surprising. Very recently, one of China's paralympic athlete who held the torch in Paris is now considered a national "hero" for withstanding the mobs that surrounded her - this further induces nationalistic pride and an overall negativity towards the West. My point is that I do blame China for the majority of this situation, but the way China handle such situations aren't anything new.

According to several people I've talked to (including my father who has been self-indulging himself in historic books about Tibet, China, and Mongolia), Tibet is far from being at fault. I can't exactly remember their reasonings, so I won't mention them here. I certainly wouldn't rule them out yet. All I do remember is that the fault is more than just Tibetans killing a few Chinese civilians in recent protests.

While the protesters have made their point, the issue is being blown out of proportion. There are other just as serious issues around the world (some of which is also getting some attention at these protests) such as high food prices and the Darfur issue. Protests are justified, but to a point. However, the protests will likely continue unless China takes proper action to mediate the situation (and that doesn't mean covering up the issue). It doesn't help that China has always been so stubborn.

What may result from the Tibet-China issue globally?
Other than an increased awareness of the situation, it's potentially harmful to China's economy, although it's economy is certainly booming like mad. Dunno, maybe sanctions against China? (Seeing how other China exports a lot of goods to other countries, there doesn't seem to be a net benefit there either.)

Although I'm Chinese myself, I don't support China's actions, and I don't shed a tear if China is in for a big mess in the future. On the other hand, I gotta research a bit more on Tibet. I'm not going to say that it's fault-free yet.

[tsugomaru]

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission

China does not know how to handle situations dealing with dissent and rebellion well. Tiananmen Square, anyone? People certainly have the right to question whether China is capable/allowed to host such an important event.

You're saying this as if China is the only big bad country in the world. Every country has done something recently that would also make them terrible candidates to host the Olympics.

~Tsugomaru

[devonin]

Actually I don't think he is. I'm pretty sure he can say "China is doing bad things, and people are justified in questioning it" without also being forced to assert "Only China is doing this" and I'm not sure why you felt he was.

What I -do- deny is your claim that EVERY country in the world has done something recently to make them a terrible candidate to host the Olympics.

If you've mind telling me what in the past 10 years Canada, Spain, Tunisia, French Guyana and say....Luxembourg have done to make them -TERRIBLE- candidates to host the Olympics, I'd like to hear them all.

[tsugomaru]

Alright, you're right about both. I can't name a single time where Canada has actually done something "bad" to disqualify them as candidates from hosting the Olympics. However, the actions of a country shouldn't prevent them from holding an event such as the Olympics if they are willing to host it. China will probably not use the Olympics to advertise communism to other countries or promote certain behaviors. That's just bad press, something China needs less of.

And if my sources are correct, a group of French kids attacked the Chinese people carrying the Olympic torch throughout the world recently.

~Tsugomaru

[devonin]

For one: You're making this out like people are saying "Because of this one thing China did, it should never be allowed to host the olympics"

The arguement goes: China has a LONG history of human rights abuses, restricting freedoms of speech, etc. Because the Olympics is supposed to represent the spirit of international community and freedom, it is hypocritical for such an event to be hosted in a country where the people in that country are demonstrably not at all free.

And "your sources" should also have pointed out that all over the WORLD where the torch has gone by, there have been wide-spread protests about China's hosting. The incident in France did involve them trying to put out the torch, but I don't believe the people were "attacked" in any really meaningful sense of the term.

[tsugomaru]

I'm also trying to say that it's unfair to say that China is the only country who's committed such crimes.

~Tsugomaru

[devonin]

Where did anybody assert that China was the only country who has committed such crimes?

[tsugomaru]

Okay, no one has I suppose, but I don't believe that China shouldn't be allowed to host the Olympics because we disagree with their policies. Justifying our reasons because they have a communist government that hurts people wouldn't make sense to anyone. Especially if America is telling them this. Sports and politics should be separate and I highly doubt that China is going to abuse the Olympics to hurt others.

~Tsugomaru

[Maid]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

Okay, no one has I suppose, but I don't believe that China shouldn't be allowed to host the Olympics because we disagree with their policies. Justifying our reasons because they have a communist government that hurts people wouldn't make sense to anyone. Especially if America is telling them this. Sports and politics should be separate and I highly doubt that China is going to abuse the Olympics to hurt others.

~Tsugomaru

Olympics is not just about sports. It holds a larger meaning, thus people protest.

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

Justifying our reasons because they have a communist government that hurts people wouldn't make sense to anyone.

It makes perfect sense to me. What you said is quite illogical.

[bmah]

Olympics is about sports and the world community. It isn't about anything else; people just use the event to bring attention to specific issues, especially in regards to politics.

Also, you must look at the point of view of most Chinese citizens. People here on this side of the Pacific believe that communism is an oppresive method of running a country, but most people in China fully support it because they believe that a rigid framework is required to keep their society in place - otherwise, it would fall apart.

[devonin]

I'm also not sure where anybody brought the fact that China is a communist state into anything they've been saying.

China has a long track record of outright human rights abuses that remain systemic and incredibly severe. Huge numbers of -chinese- citizens came out to protest the bid for Beijing to host the olympics, saying that their own country had too many serious internal problems to be allowed to host an event like the olympics.

I've said not one word about their style of government having anything to do with why they shoudln't be hosting the Olympics. The incredible corruption of their government, the pathetically unjust legal system, overuse of the death penalty, and mistreatment of women, to say nothing for their continued oppression of Tibet are all reasons why I can completely understand the massive international protest to China hosting the olympics.

[rzr]

So, why don't they just move it?

I agree that China [currently] is no place for such an important event as the Olympics.